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BRIDLEWAYS COMMUNITY FORUM : oxford
Posted Message Contributor
11/10/2007 21:12 What about it? DO you have some news for us on the BHS business? Calandra
11/10/2007 21:12 Sorry I meant BMW/BHS business? Calandra
11/10/2007 23:08 Our main witness was grilled for 5 HOURS in the witness box. She was asked time after time if she had asked permission from landowners to ride on the cycletracks and across public carparks, on route from our stables to the BR/BMW bridleway.
They asked why we zigzagged off and on verges, roads and pavements.
She answered that if it was dangerous to ride on the highway, then she would have to step onto a pavement for safety.
They are trying to say our route from our stables is therefore illegal. They are trying to make us say that we only rode the bridleway route as a protest when we knew it might be closed. This is partly true. We held protest rides to draw attention to the injustice of losing a public right of way.
Our BHS representative in court doesn't hold out much hope.
The Ramblers are having their turn in court now.
I wish I could be more upbeat, but I'm finding it hard.
It makes me want to write to the local paper to try to publicise whats going on, but we've learnt the judge doesn' t approve of witnesses who go to the media.
This court will make its decision behind closed doors, twenty miles away from the people who USE the bridleway. It's SO undemocratic.
If more of the local public were able to attend court, we might have had a different outcome from people power. 		enigma
12/10/2007 07:33 I think what is so upsetting from your description of the judge is that this decision to close was allready made before you even went to court, perhaps you could ask "who" chose the judge and if he plays golf/sqaush/tennis/freemasons with the directors/councillors of BMW ect, when the case is lost maybe that would be time to do some investigating work write to the papers before an appeal.

We had a load of really viscous speed bumps at taxpayers expense put in our area which nobody wanted or asked for, it took 3 independant reviews by an independant company paid for by taxpayers to get the same answer EVERYONE knew, WE DIDN'T WANT THEM, they had to take them out, again at taxpayers expense and put less bumps which were less aggresive, it's time councillors were made personally financially liable for wasting ratepayers money so willingly and grossly incompetently.
What they did was have an unknown public meeting with about 3 people to pass having the bumps put in, well this time it backfired on them.

We had the same with the the road comeing through, they had people monitoring the use of the rights of way and stiles across the fields, but at silly times so not to see so many people, then they were able to say hardly anyone used them, well they wont at work time after everyone took their dogs at 6 and 7 in the morning then went to work, this country stinks from top to bottom, just look at this hospital fiasco at the moment, now they dont want to talk about how much severance pay these idiots get paid after resiging, ITS OUR MONEY, we have a right to know. Grate rip off Britain.		 Pedantic
12/10/2007 07:56 Enigma, from what you say the judge seems to have made up his mind already so I would say B^GGER the judge and contact ALL the local papers, radio stations and everyone else who might possibly be interested. Have any local reporters been in court or does the judge "not approve" of THAT either?

I am afraid that it is not HIS job to approve or disapprove of anyone doing anything that is within the law and it seems to me to be only fair and democratic to involve the local media as deeply and as closely as they want to be involved.

Is anyone keeping a blog and making notes of what is being said on a daily basis? Now that would be REALLY interesting ...		 Calandra
12/10/2007 08:33 I totally agree with Calandra. Pedantic
12/10/2007 12:32 Damn good idea a blog - Judge can't do anything about that can he! Bet his trouser pocket has been lined by BMW anyway, they usually are. Sickening. Go to the papers (you don't have to be the one, anyone can surely???) Winkle
12/10/2007 13:02 EVERYONE can, Winkle. Letters and emails to all the local papers and radio stations from walkers, cyclists and horseriders pointing out that amidst all the government posturing about sustainable transport, reducing carbon emissions and getting people out of cars for a healthier lifestyle, in the City of Oxford a major car amnufacturer is quietly getting its own way to extend their factory and make MORE coronary inducing, carbon belching fossil fuel guzzlers, by closing a safe route used to access local parks for exercise and fresh air by all sorts of people, and forcing them some of the "lucky" ones onto a lengthy journey along overcrowded, lung-polluting trunk roads, while preventing others from using these open spaces by removing any safe means of access whatsoever.

Doesn't have to be Enigma, or any of enigma's friends. It could be Winkle or Pedantic or anyone - go for it!		 Calandra
12/10/2007 22:16 Excellent argument Calandra! pathan
12/10/2007 23:35 It'll be better if it's someone in the UK although I can email from Oz and say that even I have heard of the dispute in far-away Australia ... which is the most influential local paper? Calandra
13/10/2007 02:30 I always understood that to close a Public Bridleway you had to prove that it was not needed by the public. As this is the only safe route, as the proposed alternative is a cycleway and goes along the main road, it clearly is still needed. I don't know if things are different in a Magistrates court - I can't understand why it has been allowed to be dealt with in this way, and not through the normal extinguishment process and a Public Inquiry, obviously money and big local employer power has influenced this!

If you are not successful in keeping this route, which has been on maps since Roman times, what hope have we got for lost ways!!!

Don't give up yet, you never know what might come up, lets hope that the Ramblers can convince the Judge.

Has the Oxford Mail done any more reports on it? I would have thought that they would be putting out reports. Surely the Judge has not banned the Press?

I wish I could help, I have ridden many places, but unfortunately not there. If only there was a national database of where people have ridden in the past, then you could have perhaps got more user evidence. You say "if more of the local people were able to attend court" why can't they? Is there some restriction, or is it due to distance, or is it only those who have submitted evidence who can attend? In a Public Inquiry, under current regulations, any one can just turn up and give evidence.

Do you have an appeal process in the Magistrates court?

Good Luck		 Sherry
13/10/2007 03:09 The Oxford Mail is the local newspaper produced daily.
I was talking to a villager who frequently has letters published in the Oxford Mail. I told him about how undemocratic and bullying I felt the whole court experience had been. He suggested asking for a transcript of everything said in court, and to take it to the Ombudsman. He also suggested we should ask for a change of judge and a miss trial. Our lawyer thinks we would have to appeal before doing any of those things. Surely it would be too late by then?i
What if we do go to the papers etc.. and it rebounds on us?
If you read the news articles on this website, you will see how much publicity we have had up to now.
But, the BMW and County Council lawyers are/have used this against us, saying we are using the proposal for the bridleway stopping-up as SELF-PUBLICITY! and that we are all activists and protesters!!

Going back to the court proceedings - when our lawyer, and indeed the |Ramblers lawyer questioned the BMW representatives, the judge would interrupt and say "Is this relevant?" or "Where is this questioning going?", but during the grilling of "our ladies" as the judge calls us, he didn't interrupt them once. He just let them go on grilling us about the "illegal route" we have been taking to the bridleway.
Surely their questions are IRRELEVANT?
What is relevant is that they are, as we've all been saying before on this forum, in the wrong, not us, to be trying to close a public right of way, that is protected by law. Why can't we ask the judge THAT question?
What upsets me is that all their fatcat lawyers are dragging it out as long as possible, and then WE will have to pay the court costs if we lose. Just because we stood up for ours and the public's rights against injustice and the taking away of another bit of our national heritage.

I think I will use your excellent letter Calandra, to send to the Oxford Mail. As you and Pedantic say, the judge has made up his mind already so there's nothing to lose.
Sorry if this post has gone on too long, apologies.		 enigma
13/10/2007 03:35 Sherry, the court hearing is taking place approximately 2 miles away from Oxford.
Who can take time off from work to travel that distance?
I believe it was chosen on purpose to deter objectors.
The case is being taken to court on a 116, and not through a Public Enquiry, which, as you said, it should have been.

Regarding publicity, we have read up on the judges' past cases, and it is disturbing to note that he doesn't approve of people seeking publicity.
This was what made us hold back.
One of our riders has a reporter contact at South Today tv. He is interested and has offered to cover our story but we haven't wanted to upset the judge.
The case goes on for another 2 days next week, enough time to get some publicity before the verdict maybe?

Two comments I thought I heard the judge make in court were "I don't like horseriding" and "Weren't you AFRAID to ride through that estate to the bridleway?" which seemed to cast aspersions on the type of people who live on council estates.
The trouble is, I can't be certain he said those things, mainly because I couldn't believe my ears. I would have to be certain he said them before repeating them again.
Would the clerk of the court be writing down all comments, and could we get a copy? I must find out next week.
 enigma
13/10/2007 03:37 Sorry, I meant to say 20 miles away from Oxford. enigma
13/10/2007 10:06 This entire process sounds DISGRACEFUL. There appears to be blatant prejudice against those fighting for common rights, disgusting implications of class discrimination, and a judge who seems to believe that being in court gives him the right to HOLD court as monarchs did in the days of yore.

You MUST get the publicity going NOW. A judge does not have any right to "disapprove" of ANYTHING if it is within the law. It is not in his job description or his remit to do so and if that has been somehow recorded clearly and reliably then take it to the News of the World!

The process sounds like a total travesty of justice, fair play and equality under the law.		 Calandra
13/10/2007 12:00 Dont forget to mention the impact on the environment we are "constantly" reminded about by goverments and councils this CAR factrory is going to have on the area. Pedantic
13/10/2007 15:10 Hi Enigma, I see you are another who burns the midnight oil!

I feel so angry, yet what can we do to help, it does sound like the Judge has a complete bias against horseriders.

Without publicity how are people to know what is happening until they try to use the route in the future, and maybe find it closed and then it is too late. This is always our problem with rights of way, finding the people who knew routes some years ago, as many who ride are female and are difficult to trace if they have married or moved away, it is often only by publicity that we can get the information to them. Surely there is nothing in law that forbids it. It is also, surely the duty of Oxfordshire County Council to let people know that this route is under possible extinguishment! You cannot close a public route that is needed, and especially where no safe alternative is offered. What hope do we have for all our other routes that go through people's 'factories' FARMS!!! if they get away with this?

Has publicity been deliberately avoided. You would expect a Court case to be given publicity in the newspapers, especially one which could take the publics rights away. Why should those protecting a public right be subject to costs. It is disgusting. They should get their costs for sticking up for the public, not be treated in the way you have described. It is no wonder we find it difficult to get people to give evidence to a Public Inquiry, or in your case a Court Case!!!

How much bigger is your carbon footprint going to be if you all have to box your horses to safe riding, that is those who can afford transport.
Does the Judge think that only wealthy people should ride?

What is the Judge's name, perhaps you should find out what his interests are, and if he has any that are prejuducial to the case!!		 Sherry
13/10/2007 16:37 Everyone, Ive just received devastating news.
Mark Weston - our BHS legal representative in court, has just text us to say "WE HAVE LOST THE CASE".

Sherry, in reply to your post, yes, I have trouble sleeping lately so I do burn the midnight oil.

The judge's name is Brian Losely or Loosely.

I'm shattered by the news.
Now what?		 enigma
13/10/2007 16:47 If anyone is interested in reading about our fight to save the bridleway, it can be found in the NEWS ARTICLES on this Forum.
I think it goes back nearly 2 years to when we had our first Bridleway riding group meeting, then to our Protest Ride/Walk/Cycle along the bridleway and Roman Way (this was televised). 		enigma
13/10/2007 18:37 This has not made my day at all, with the constant question mark over our Elvaston Castle regarding developers trying to have it for fat cat business and a golf course, it just re-inforces my belief that the big boys will always get their own way, yes we get all the window dressing of "pretending" to be concerned for the area and peoples views, but they always get their own way in the end, due to the postal strike I had to drive about 20mins to the Council offices to get my letter in before the 18th to put forward my objection to a change of use of one of the fields, the depressing thing is I know I'm wasting my time and fuel, if they get this it's a thin edge of the wedge for other development, have a look at this-

http://www.friendsofelvaston.co.uk/stables.htm
 Pedantic
13/10/2007 19:00 It was a done deal from the beginning wasn't it?

I wish there was something I could say to cheer you up, Pedantic		 enigma
13/10/2007 19:25 Ive just visited the friendsofelvaston website. What a beautiful place.
I have written pledging my support.
It seems to be their County Council has a done deal with big business there too, doesnt it? Golf course and hotel.
What DO our councils do with our Council Tax?
They should be more publicly accountable imo
Best wishes and Good Luck to you in your fight Pedantic		 enigma
13/10/2007 20:07 Thats why I feel so annoyed and upset over your situation, first off I/we had to endure a massive housing estate at the other stables I was at, which also has had a route blocked off to riders which I mentioned on another posting, we had a road shoved through we didn't want with the lie of reducing traffic through Alvason, the constant threat of the castle closure and a large peice of land we ride across next to the river looking like it's going to be another soddin industrial estate with all the EXTRA traffic and crap, this will push more of all of us riders,cyclist,walkers,dog walkers,illegal trail bikes in each others faces which is allready a problem, and they call it progress, and people wonder why I have such a pedanticvindictive attitude, we have had no peace where we live since we moved into this area, extra estate added onto our close, we were told they would never build on marsh land, they did, then they knocked the flats down behind us and built association houses instead and put dross in them, you name it we have had it drugs, syringes, gunshots, vandals, theives, noisy illegal bikes, fly tipping, large gangs of shite roaming around, bonfire month each year, unless you have loads of money to move into a posh area it's going to be the same wherever we go in our price range, all that matters to the powers that be is money, talk of community, open air parks and country walks is all spin, the castle is a real shame and should be kept for the public, but some of the dross vandalising litter dropping chav garbage types who go through the park is soul destroying, the security have some real problems to deal with on top of the shop lifting, maybe the society were breeding doesn't deserve anything decent like a free country park, when we are nose to nose in cars concrete and cant breath the air maybe they will be happy, when it's too late. Pedantic
13/10/2007 21:57 I am so sorry enigma to hear your news. I thought you hadn't finished in court? I have just been through a really horrible Inquiry hence the late nights!! Still waiting for the result. How come Mark knew before you, was the verdict not given in court? Take care Sherry
13/10/2007 22:19 Surely some reasons must be given? How odd that the judge can weigh up the evidence so quickly when it takes months after a public inquiry. Enigma - of course you feel shattered & it is dreadful if the case has been lost etc but you put up a fantastic fight. You cannot ever blame yourself for not trying hard enough to save this route. Very well done. What are they offering for horse riders then - anything? pathan
13/10/2007 23:18 Sherry, we were due to have 2 more days as I understood it. I couldnt make it to court last Friday, and as far as I know the Ramblers were in the witness stand having their say.
I only know what Mark texted to us today - we had lost the case.
We should hear more soon, so I will be able to say more then.
Pedantic, I'm like you, I despair of the way society is going - but I don't regret having TRIED to fight the bridleway closure.
Thanks for your kind words, pathan. No, thay haven't offered horseriders anything, that's it! We will have to cross a dual carriageway from now on to reach Shotover Country Park.

Good luck to you with your inquiry, Sherry.		 enigma
13/10/2007 23:55 Oh I am so sorry.
Well, now is even MORE the time for publicity - what has happened, has happened and can't be un-happened but by golly make sure that every bugger knows about what has happened and the shenanigans surrounding it complete with judge's statements about not liking publicity and not liking horses, and ESPECIALLY with his question about whether you're not afraid to ride through the estate. Get onto ALL the local papers, radio stations etc etc and make sure that EVERYONE knows what could happen to them if they ever need to have "their day" in court protecting their age-old freedoms.		 Calandra
14/10/2007 00:11 Enigma, I am so sorry , your news is devastating . It is not just the loss of a pathway, but the blatent injustice , those in high places squashing the rights of the general public. I've just looked up s.116 in the blue bible ,(Riddall and Trevelyan, Rights of Way) and cannot understand how it ( the Br) can be said to be unnecessary when riders are using it,and no alternative is to be provided. To quote ......."the meaning of 'unnecessary'was consideredby the High Court ....it was held that the magistrates would need to bear in mind that the way had to beunnecessary for the public; the convenience of the landowner was not a relevant factor.........Lord Justice Woolf saying that where there was evidence of use, it would be difficult for the maistrates properly to come to the conclusion that a way was unnecessary unless publicwere, or were going to be, provided with a reasonable alternative way."Again commiserations . I hope this doesn't set a precedence as so many Brs are underused , not because they aren't needed but because of the danger on the roads getting to them. bobbyflo
14/10/2007 06:55 Sorry Enigma, wallowing in my own problems I forgot to say well done along with everyone else, you have my respect for your valiant fight against all the odds. Pedantic
14/10/2007 08:55 Better to have fought & lost than not to have fought at all, however upsetting it is to lose - and I guess many of us know that feeling. Where will we be able to see the decision in writing & how it relates to the Blue Book quoted above? pathan
14/10/2007 09:44 On behalf of Newint and I, thanks for all your kind words, advice and encouragement during this tough time.
We couldnt have carried on fighting without the help and support of you all on this brilliant forum!

Time now to have a little cry, recover and think about going to the media!
I want to find out about going to appeal, but we all feel like we've been kicked in the guts, so it will be hard to get motivated again.

As soon as I find out where the decision is in writing, I will post it here.
HarleyandCopper		 enigma
14/10/2007 10:48 Actually it is US who should be thanking YOU for doing this on behalf of all riders, everywhere.

I just wish I could have done MORE.		 Calandra
14/10/2007 15:46 We know why the judge was able to weigh up the evidence and make a judgement. Because he had already made up his narrow little prejudiced mind.
We've got a court case going on where a local big wig farmer has made a bridleway impassable by moving his field boundary right up to the edge of the wood wo no one can get through anymore. However, this guy does exactly what he wants and even if the case goes against him he will carry on regardless. (He's done similiar stuff before) He will get away with it because he is RICH and he is POWERFUL so everyone round here doesn't want to cross him. Makes me want to scream.
Well done anyway Enigma - just keep making a fuss, you never know something positive might transpire.		 chloe
14/10/2007 16:18 That's funny Chloe we have 2 examples of that here going on at the moment. One is by a well known jockey no less attempting to push riders onto an unsuitable route. We are waiting for himmto block the definitive route......

Enigma - i supect this case is going to get a lot of attention generally		 pathan
14/10/2007 19:08 Well I had a bad night not sleeping last night, so got up at 6.20 this morning to go for an early ride, came downstairs to a pile of horrible dog poo on the kitchen floor, I reckon due to the assholes letting bangers off last night, they are at it now in the distance as I type this, anyway after cleaning up it meant I went out in a really bad mood, sooooo, I plodded off for about an hour to where thay have put a sign up saying sustrans route and NO horses, (note no sign of alternative route for horses) well I used to ride along that route same as other riders for years, so I ignored the sign and rode on waiting for someone to say something, guess what, nobody said a thing, quite dissapointed as I was well up for a slanging match, not really the attitude I know, but it's how it makes you feel, anyway after 4 hours riding I calmed down a bit. Pedantic
14/10/2007 21:22 Oh God, maybe we should just be grateful we can ride ANYWHERE in our lifetime. If we come back in100 years time, where will people be riding then? WILL they be riding then? It doesn't bear thinking about. flower
14/10/2007 21:54 Flower, good point. One of our riders in our group is German. She said in Germany they have got rid of most of the bridleways because they don't like people having the "freedom to roam".
She said they have built specially designated areas for horseriders, and most have to box to them.
 enigma
14/10/2007 22:03 Pedantic to Sustrans:

"Do you ever wonder what life might be like if we travelled in ways that actually benefited our health and our environment?"
This is the question asked on your webpage "Why Sustrans?"

I do travel in ways that actually benefit my health and the general environment. I enjoy using the most sustainable mode of transport in existence (after Shank's pony, of course). At least, I did until you - the supposed providers of safe routes for just such people as myself - prevented me from using my chosen mode of transport along a route which I, and others like me, have used for many, many years.

Just what is it that you, as an organisation, have against horses? They are environmentally far more sound that bicycles, requiring neither fast-depleting metallic ores nor factories for their manufacture and production - in fact the hand of man scarcely enters into the matter. Fueled by plants and with emissions that people are often prepared to pay good money for, they are the original and unchanged native form of transport.

Horses carried our prehistoric ancestors on their ancient trade routes across Britain, helped the Romans conquer us, drew Boudicca's chariot and featured in Chaucer's Tales. Since time immemorial equines of various sorts have pulled and carried nobles and peasants, precious goods and basic necessities. They were the first means of motive power along railways; they toiled in mines and drew barges along canals. animal power in general is far from being an anachronism in today's world in general. The number of equines is increasing overall, in all sections of society and parts of the world, for all purposes - leisure, work, fitness, profit and pleasure.

The natural place of the horse is not rotating in circles leaping gaily-painted obstacles on command or drawing heavy loads through crowded city streets; it is travelling at a steady pace from place to place. The infernal internal combustion engine and the support it is given by business and government has eroded any pleasurable or practical use of roads. What is left for us? Ancient bridleways, drove roads, packhorse trails and byways, all of which we must, by law, share - which we do willingly and safely - with our friends the cyclists.

What a pity, then, that the organisation charged with providing tracks for cyclists does not have the same level of tolerance, respect and consideration for horseriders as we ourselves have - and indeed must have, by law - for cyclists.

The path XXXX from A to B in Blankshire is a prime example. It has been ridden for years by both cyclists and horseriders with no problems, no dissent and no danger. It is a useful route for Y purpose, and I use it at least once weekly for Z. Yet now it suddenly bears the sign "NO HORSES".

On whose remit, and for what purpose, may I ask, has one of Britain's native species been unceremoniously banned from this route?

It seems to me that, given the number of miles of route which Sustrans has constructed or adapted, and which are now forbidden to horses, that it may well be time for the countryside act 1968 to be re-examined in the light of present-day circumstances, and for questions to be asked about the appropriateness of this act and the permission it gives cyclists to use bridleways. In 1968 there were less than half the number of horseriders than there are nowadays, and road traffic merely a fraction of what it is nowadays. The number of bridleways has not increased in proportion to the number of riders - on the contrary, the overall mileage of bridleways on the definitive map has fallen. Actions such as those carried out by organisations such as yourself only exacerbate the problem.

Please do not respond with the usual nonsense about the "dangers of mixed usage". This is rubbish, and well you know it. Responsible, properly conducted studies - such as those carried out by the Mendip Cross-Trails Trust - have shown clearly that the problem is one only in perception and not in reality.

Kind regards

Pedantic
 Calandra
15/10/2007 06:04 Excellent! BW Routemaster
15/10/2007 07:15 The word gemany and freedom dont seem to exactly lay side by side in ones mind.
Calandras letter says it all, but peeing in the wind springs to mind, allready getting a box of tissues ready for the letter I posted by hand regarding change of use of a field at the castle.

 Pedantic
15/10/2007 08:10 is was on the 8.am news on Radio 4 this morning
for the Ramberlers		 Kais
15/10/2007 10:03 BBC CEEFAX HEADLINES - PATH - Ramblers put brake on BMW plan

Walkers battle BMW over Footpath.

The car giant BMW is being taken to court by the Ramblers Association because the company wants to close a 2,000 year old footpath.
The company applied in May last year for permission to divert a bridleway it says stands in the way of development at its plant in Cowley, Oxfordshire.
The Ramblers Association said the alternative route - alongside a congested ring road - is unacceptable.
BMW says about 400 people a day use the path, most of whom are its own staff.

Well, what about that then?
Headlines on the BBC!

What an excellent letter from you Calandra - we will show it to our solicitor.
We are now, this very minute, going to ride to the BMW Bridleway 75, to meet a reporter from BBC SOUTH TODAY.
Must go
Will post again on return		 enigma
15/10/2007 10:14 The letter was meant for Pedantic to send to Sustrans who have put up "no horses" notices on a track which he and others use ... you will need to alter it for your purposes, Enigma or anyone else.

I WISH I was there to help, I really do!		 Calandra
15/10/2007 12:33 Hope everyone will be watching & videoing the news today, then! I too heard it on the NATIONAL BBC radio 4 news at 7am this morning. No mention of horses disppointingly but it looks as if you will get them on the map Enigma - well done. You may be lose this case but but you are going out with a bang - I hope the Magistrate has his argumetns straight......... more than the argument BMW is big , the rest of us are in the way

Yes Calandra - good point perhaps our equestrian access organization(s) needs to start lobbying to repeal cyclists having access to bridleways...... On the other hand some of us are pushing the Mendips Cross Trails Trust concept of multi-user routes very hard currently as this seems to be the most likely way we will get more riding routes. Keep riding that Sustrans route Pedantic. perhaps we ought to arrange a mass ride on barred Sustrans routes all over the country...........		 pathan
15/10/2007 12:49 I don't really think that cyclists should be stipped from using bridleways! - but there should certainly be closer bonds between cyclists and riders; the Mendip Cross-Trails study which was carried out should be pushed for all it is worth and we riders need to keep pointing out the Countryside Act 1968, when the cyclists were given a de-facto ( not absolute - TRO's can be put in place to keep exclusively cyclists off bridleways, and are proposed every year on Snowdon until the voluntary agreement is re-established ...) right to use bridleways. We really do need to MILK that act as hard as we can in the battle to get access to so-called multi-user trails. I also think that NO authority has ANY right to alter the surface of a bridleway to make it more suitable for other users and less suitable for horses. That surely must be a principal enshrined in law.

The biggest problem we will encounter on multi-user trails is people objecting to horse poo. If the trail is tarmac and used by the wheelchair-bound or people pushing baby pushchairs, I can understand their objections. Of course if a sandy, grass, wood chip or similar surface is provided for horse the question will not arise, and as we all know, the first shower of rain washed everything away. However "lay" people might not know that, and think that horse poo is just as sticky and unpleasant and rain-resistant as dog poo.

Perhaps anyone who regularly rides along a multi-user trail might like to inform nearby gardeners that a quiet walk with bucket and shovel might be profitable for their compost heap ...		 Calandra
15/10/2007 16:20 The man from Sustrans at the BHS Access meetinging wasn't anti horse, just not pro horse. It was a luke warm welcome, but worth quoting nevertheless.

I suppose BMW doesn't sponsor any horse things does it? We could then all complain a lot to the local garage.		 pip
15/10/2007 16:35 If you can sustain and prove the allegations of prejudice and bias against the judge you name, then you should pass your evidence on to the Lord Chancellor or Ministry of Justice or whatever he calls himself these days. Fortnight
15/10/2007 19:27 Hi everyone. We heard today that we lost the case to prevent Oxfordshire County Council's application with BMW to close the bridleway in Oxford, known as BR75/Roman Way, that runs across BMW's Cowley plant.
As horseriders we are devastated by the loss of this route which means we can no longer access Shotover Country Park with its bridleways. BMW is providing an alternative route for cyclists and pedestrians, but NOT for horses.
In addition to losing our right of way, the BHS and Ramblers Association have been told to pay costs to Oxfordshire County Council. We are appalled that Oxfordshire County Council is pressing costs against two charities. The BHS's share comes to nearly £30,000 and we all need to pitch in and help by sending a donation to the Legal Fund - send to the Director of Access, Mark Weston, at BHS, Stoneleight Deer Park, Kenilworth CV8 2XZ.
I and others who have opposed this closure would like to thank Mark Weston for representing us in court, and to thank the BHS for taking up the cause in this important access case. As a BHS member, I am delighted that the BHS supported us and even though we lost this case, we are proud that the organisation was involved and feel this sends a clear signal of how important access issues are for its members and for everyone who likes to ride.
WE MUST KEEP FIGHTING TO KEEP OUR BRIDLEWAYS OPEN! I rode the 'BMW' bridleway this morning and we are on BBC South Today and local/national radio.
Thanks to everyone for your support. We really appreciate it, and all the good ideas you have given us.
I rode the 'BMW' bridleway this morning and we are on BBC South Today and local/national radio.
[My name here is 'newint' but my horse is Copper and 'Enigma' is my friend - we keep our horses together.]
 newint
15/10/2007 20:54 Who does the cheque have to be made payable to ? Pedantic
15/10/2007 21:39 Do they accept Paypal? Calandra
15/10/2007 21:47 Hi Pedantic - all cheques/donations to: The British Horse Society.

I and my friend Newint got home finally from court about an hour ago. We are so shattered, but they haven't broken our spirit!
We want to go to appeal but we need to raise some money for the BHS "fighting fund" to be able to do it.
The judge has only given us 28 days to pay the court costs.

If 500 people join the British Horse Society in the next month, that might do it, I think. Any donation would be a help.
My friend newint and i sound like we are recruitment officers for the BHS don't we? We're not, but we are very grateful to Mark Weston and Henry Whittaker from the Access Dept. for helping us to fight BMW. It has taken up lots of their time, and they have proved to be very "genuine" guys.
We have been told to take our case to the Lord Chief Justice regarding the judges' biased and prejudiced remarks. So, that's where the "fighting fund" comes in again. If only we could find a horsey and rich benefactor!

By the way, Newint and I have given BHS £170. from our recent fundraising ideas suggested by you all. Thanks! We need to raise quite a lot more now after todays' devastating verdict.

My other half saw us on national television today, and he's working up in Scotland!! so we managed to get a lot of publicity, and we hope, a lot of sympathy.

It doesnt seem possible that we won't be able to ride the BR75 Roman Way to Shotover ever again.

Sooooo depressed!

The judges' final comment was "in this case of David versus Goliath, Goliath won"		 enigma
15/10/2007 22:13 Writing cheque fo £50.00 now, will post in the morning, dont know how long it will take to get there with the postal stike, wish I was loaded I'd pay the the bloody lot. Pedantic
15/10/2007 22:32 Yes, if a load of riders did join the BHS after this, it would help but most seem to either be oblivious to access issues or just pick holes in the organization - of which there are a fair number.
The BHS needs to be generally more like the Ramblers - it has some way to go. The question is can we help make it so. I do not know.
What happens if the costs ar e not paid I wonder?		 pathan
15/10/2007 22:54 Wow - thanks pedantic!!

 enigma
15/10/2007 23:38 Pathan, do you think it's because when you think of the Ramblers, you have a clear idea of who they are, and what they stand for, and with BHS you don't?

I remember only finding out about BHS when i got my horse approx 3 years ago. His previous owner told me she was insured through them,which then prompted me to do the same. I hadnt heard of them before, or maybe they had been irrelevent to me?
They need to raise their profile and become relevent to all "grass root" riders/owners to increase their membership. I think what their Access dept. have done to try to save the bridleway has done their cause a lot of good, and maybe also raised their profile.
I can certainly say personally that i would ve been too afraid to take on BMW in court on my own, or even with my riding friends, but with the support and guidance of BHS, we felt we had a better chance of success. It was just our bad luck that it was a giant car company we were up against.
It hasnt put us off fighting for horseriders rights, or for the rights of the "Davids" of this world. If more riders see that the BHS ARE prepared to fight for their rights in court when/if they need them, it will go a long way towards raising awareness of the society.

Is it because the BHS is so fragmented that equestrians don't have a clear idea of what they stand for?
Hopefully after today they will have, even though they lost, at least tried.		 enigma
16/10/2007 01:22 Hi enigma - my cheque will be on its way to the BHS tomorrow. I am disgusted that this ever came to a magistrates court, and was not dealt with through a Public Inquiry held near to the route, to give members of the public a fair chance to defend their rights. Unfortunately money talks and, having read on the website how it came to go through this procedure I feel the whole thing stinks!!

Why do they keep talking about footpath when it is a bridleway! If they are closing a bridleway then the alternative route that they are paying for must be legally available for horseriders, although I am not sure who would want to ride around the By-pass, at least they must be given to right to do so!

I am so pleased that the BHS gave you such support - Mark is excellent.
I do hope that you can raise the funds to go to appeal, or what hope is there for our other bridleways. I would have thought that you had proved that the route was needed, so how can they just close it with no provision for horseriders elsewhere?		 Sherry
16/10/2007 01:28 Why oh WHY are we discussing this HERE???? (no offence meant to BW Routemaster of course!)

Why the HE!! does the BHS not have a forum? That is the proper - and more effective - place for this discussion, surely?

Enigma raises some excellent points about the fragmentation and perceived irrelevance of the BHS. Unfortunately their administration, media representatives and webmasters do their access department NO favours at all. 		Calandra
16/10/2007 05:33 Calandra - the BHS do have a private discussion forum for access officers - just that a few also come here for an alternative view! As to the result well it stinks! - and very suspect. However my concern now is that after effectively losing £30K I cannot see the BHS will stomach other potential battles of this level. Unfortunatley its not a level playing field - and a lot happens off the field on golf courses (if you get my drift). Hopefully my fears are unfoundered - but these legal costs are staggering well beyond the average person or charity for that matter. If I were the BHS or Ramblers I would be challenging the 'costs' with OCC as a matter of priority. So much for free speech...




Sure, many of there members and others will donate. 		BW Routemaster
16/10/2007 07:15 I am sick and tired of being classd as a toff just because I have a horse and ride, I noticed on a web page commet forum to do with an Oxford paper regarding this case someone calling us toffs, I think a lot of people have the knife in for us due to a total misconception about us, maybe this is contributing to Bridleway closures. Pedantic
16/10/2007 09:34 I hope by discussing it here, we are in some small way showing unity and appreciation to all the work that has been done by all those who opposed the order., but I agree BHS could do with a forum so we can pass ideas and opinions between the experts and the grassroots.. But also this case needs to be brought to the attention of the non riding public, I hope the RA and BHS press officers are sending letters /articles to the major papers ,and magazines as well as the horsey coverage. On a local level ,some horseriders have lost a route, but the greater issue is that this case stinks ,and it seems they will get away with it. The government have discussed years ago that s. 116 should not be used for this type of case , with its unfair costs, but nothing was actually done . Collectively , we must press that they DO do something, Hopefully if the wider public are informed of this case , they might also contribute towards the costs and recognise the injustice of this whole scenario. bobbyflo
16/10/2007 09:38 What about "Watchdog"? bobbyflo
16/10/2007 10:32 Enigma, how about writing to the Letters page of your local paper and politely asking the County Council Highways dept , that since the closure of the bridleway and the new alternative, which presumably is provided at the expense of BMW, excludes horse riders, for them to advise riders the route that they recommend should be used instead of the original route.
The reply will then be public for all to read. Then get some riders together and use the recommended route. If it disrupts other road users then at least they will know you are not using that route by choice but on the advice of the Highways Authority. There are guidelines and recommended policies set out by govt. for the HAs on provision for riders on safe margins and crossings according to traffic levels, these could be checked and if not in accordance with the route they advise thet will have to install them , at public expense of course. They may even decide it would be better to upgrade the original route.		 bobbyflo
16/10/2007 10:36 Sorry i meant the new alternative route,not the old one which has gone. bobbyflo
16/10/2007 16:13 (Newint here) Thank you VERYmuch for the comments, and for the donations. I have written to all the Oxfordshire County Councillors about the vindictiveness of the costs, plus local newspaper, H&H, Horse and Rider and Noel Edmonds (former president of the BHS). We were on BBC South tv last night. There is a blog on the New Internationalist web site (where I work) go to www.newint.org and look on blogs.
There was a small piece in the Daily Telegraph on p2, slightly inaccurate in that BMW are not diverting a BRIIDLEWAY, they are closing it.
My husband has written to the Lord Chief Justice about how mean it is to slam charities for the costs.
I quite agree that this kind of action by the bHS will attract people like us to become members and feel that the organisation is there for us too.
Let's keep the noise level high on this, and also continue to try and get the BHS to have a proper forum. BW Routemaster has offered to moderate/manage it and I have mentioned this to Mark West (BHS director of Access) but I guess we need to find who the website people are.
We'll keep fighting!
Regarding bobbflo's comment above, we do know the alternative route to Shotover. It takes 2 and 1/2 hours just to get there. Then, allowing for a circular ride, or at least some kind of ride, plus rest for horse and rider, I reckon it would take at least 6 hours, ie a full day trip. Using our current road by the (now closed) bridleway takes just over two hours for a round trip - excellent for a morning/afternoon or evening ride for people who work or can only ride at weekends like me.
 newint
16/10/2007 16:14 Dear All,

Thank you very much for your support. Rest assured that the BHS will continue to fight access battles, however we do need a fund to enable us to do this. We will be using the outcome of this case to demonstrate the necessity for us to have such a fund, and will be appealing to all horse riders and carriage drivers to contribute to this.

Oxfordshire County Council's application for costs was £66,204.19, whilst BMW's was £182,825.88, which goes to demonstrate the fire power which was used against us, and the necessity for us to have an adequate fund.

You may be interested to read a copy of the letter that Graham Cory our Chief Executive has today sent to BMW, a copy of this is set out below.

Can i thank you for all of your support.

Best wishes,

Mark Weston,
Director of Access, Safety and Welfare,
The British Horse Society.

Dr. - Ing. Norbert Reithofer
BMW Group
Petuelring 130
D-80788 Munich
Germany


Fax: +49 89-3 82-2 44 18

Dear Dr. Reithofer,

Although no-one ever celebrates losing a case in court, I will tell you that my predominant emotion is one of bewilderment that BMW (Oxford) should have been so cavalier in setting itself not just against local horse riders, but against the leading UK horse charity.

I am sure you will have been kept informed of the case but, as a reminder, the matter may be summarised as follows:

• A right of way for horses (and, of course, pedestrians) has existed for 2,000 years across land in Oxford which is now in the ownership of BMW;

• BMW wished to profit from development opportunities on the site (which is a perfectly reasonable thing for any commercial undertaking to do);

• The continued existence of the right of way would have reduced the value to BMW of the site;

• BMW applied to the local authority for the right of way to be extinguished;

• The British Horse Society, which is a charity, did not wish the bridleway to be lost to local riders and, as allowed for by law, lodged a formal objection (which, in turn, is a perfectly reasonable thing for a horse charity to do). We would not have objected had BMW agreed to replace the lost bridleway with an alternative. However, BMW agreed to provide an alternative route only for pedestrians and cyclists;

• BMW agreed to put its almost limitless financial resources behind the local authority if it took the matter to court. Supported by this assurance that it had nothing to lose, the local authority agreed;

• The Court approved BMW’s application to extinguish the right of way. The BHS recognises the authority of the Court to come to the conclusion it did.

• Costs of £30,000 were awarded against the charity for doing what its charitable objects provide as one of its principal purposes for existing - promoting and protecting rights of way.

I can only speculate why BMW set its mind so resolutely against making the alternative route for the riders whose route across the site had been taken away from them. And I can only speculate as to why BMW should so willingly have sought to alienate the equestrian community in the UK by contributing to the year on year decline in equestrian rights of way in the UK.

You should understand that it is not just the riders in Oxford who will be appalled at BMW’s attitude, nor the 105,000 members of The British Horse Society but the 4,200,000 riders in the UK who will associate BMW with the anti-horse element. Given that a significant proportion of this 4.2 million will be your customers - or your potential customers - this is a cunning marketing ploy which I cannot pretend to fathom.

As it is, we will now have to launch a national fighting fund, which we will publicly dedicate to BMW’s honour, to recoup the £30,000. Whereas this sum may be small change to you, it represents a huge sum to an equine charity. Moreover, I suspect you would agree that it is hardly a fair burden, given that we were simply arguing in good faith a point of public interest. Or maybe BMW believes that David should never have the temerity to argue with Goliath?

Perhaps BMW UK would like to make the first contribution to our fighting fund.


Yours sincerely,




Graham M Cory
Chief Executive
mark
16/10/2007 17:02 Good luck with this, BHS!
If the BHS has 67,000 members and they each gave just 50p we'd easily have enough ...
II've put in £50 and we have raised money at car boot sales also (thanks to enigma!)
 newint
16/10/2007 17:06 PLUS forgot to add while we're sort of on the subject of access, and in case people don't know, there is a peition about access that it would be good to sign if you have not already, and pass on
> PLEASE SIGN & DISTRIBUTE THE PETITION ON
> http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/equestrianaccess		 newint
16/10/2007 18:46 Sorry, haven't had time to post anything on the bridleway extinguishment today. Been busy writing letters and preparing for an emergency meeting tonight to discuss the outrageous costs against us.
Will post the judge's summimg up speech here too.
You may need a stiff drink on hand when reading it!!

I am pleased to see letters from Mark Weston and Graham Cory.
It seems that the most shocking outcome from the bridleway closure, is the amount of £30,000 in court costs the judge, BMW and Oxford County Council vindictively awarded AGAINST A CHARITY!!
They will find they have opened a Pandora's box with this disgraceful action.!		 enigma
16/10/2007 20:51 I have sent a cheque for £50 today to the BHS as this whole sorry story absolutely stinks of back pocket payout! B****** !! Let's keep it in the headlines and especially use Graham Cory (BHS) letter, cos if it can happen there it can happen anywhere. Winkle
16/10/2007 22:08 Just looking for media coverage and noticed another scandal in Oxfordshire:
Radley Lakes a 2 hectare site located between Radley and Abingdon - appears to be threatened.

RWE NPower and Oxfordshire County Council between them have concocted a scheme which will destroy a beautiful lake and deprive the community of an essential part of the landscape. The area is rich in bio-diversity and should be protected.Instead 500,000 tonnes of waste fuel ash (PFA) will be dumped here to the detriment of the wildlife and the environment.

Humm - appears the County Council have very strange views regarding amenity value looks like a pattern is developing - not that i'm going to start a legal case...

 BW Routemaster
16/10/2007 22:47 Excellent letter from Graham Cory, thank you for sharing it with us Mark.
Lets hope that it shames BMW.It is so wrong that a charity has to pay for defending a public right - where is the justice in this.

Keep up the donations to the BHS fighting fund - we have to have someone to fight our corner.
 Sherry
16/10/2007 23:24 Can anyone PLEASE tell me if I can donate by Paypal? I do not have access to a Sterling bank account but I DO have a Paypal account which I use for international charitable donations. I asked earlier but no-one replied, and given the record of the BHS's responses to my emails, it's no use my emailing and asking them.

Good letter from Graham Corey but from my experience of working with Germans for a couple of years, dear Dr Reithofer simply won't "get" it - far too subtle for someone whose first language is German.		 Calandra
16/10/2007 23:56 Calandra - I will find out if you can donate by Paypal. Sorry for not replying earlier to your request - haven't had a lot of time to post here today. Time has been taken up sending letters/press releases etc. enigma
17/10/2007 00:14 " Good letter from Graham Corey but from my experience of working with Germans for a couple of years, dear Dr Reithofer simply won't "get" it - far too subtle for someone whose first language is German "

Suggest he's sat on a young horse and to,ld to find his own altern ative way!		 jinglejoys
17/10/2007 00:14 BW Routemaster - yes, the OCC do seem to have it in for the public in Oxford don't they?
Two travesties of justice in two days - I think the press should be told don't you?		 enigma
17/10/2007 01:27 Enigma, I wasn't expecting a response from you particularly ... just from anyone who's a member of the BHS and posting on this thread. There have been several ;-) Calandra
17/10/2007 01:51 A thought ... has anyone attacked this whole sorry business from a historical/archeological/cultural angle? The main romano-british potteries were in North Oxford, in the Shotover area, IIRC.

It would be interesting for anyone with the time to spare, to find out if BMW - orany other car manufacturer - has ever handled a similar "problem" in Germany, and how it was concluded. I realise that RoW legislation is not comparable between different countries - even the different laender in Germany have differing interpretations of "Reitrecht" in each Laende, but all the same it might be enlightening ... 		Calandra
17/10/2007 13:29 Enigma has set up this paying mechanism for donations (thanks enigma!) Scroll past the message below for the link.
The charity, The British Horse Society, helped horseriders in court try to prevent BMW closing a bridleway in Oxford. We lost, & have to raise £30,000
in costs. Please help & tell your friends!
*** About donating online ***
It's very easy to support glynis coxeter online - just go to their page at the following web address and click "donate now".
Web Address: http://www.justgiving.com/glyniscoxeterbhsfightingfund
 newint
17/10/2007 22:38 It's only easy if you use Visa or Mastercard. Doesn't work for Paypal :( or for cash, cheques, money orders, Bpay, internet transfers etc etc etc.

Sorry but it looks like I will have to bow out of financial support for this one. There's no way for me to do it. 		Calandra
17/10/2007 23:26 Oh well, your moral support has been invaluable, thanks Calandra enigma
18/10/2007 09:02 Calandra, thank you so much for all your help. I will also push the paypal thing with BHS (thanks enigma). I have now just emailed Mark Weston too.
BW Routemaster - could you change the topic of this thread? Currently you would not know what it is about and we do want people to get involved and read it - perhaps 'BMW court case Oxford' or 'BMW Goliath gets bridleways closure in Oxford'? Thanks
 newint
18/10/2007 10:19 Hi Newint, enigma, & Harley & Copper I have brought some of the past history on this subject up - 'Threatened closure of Bridleway BR75', 'S.O.B. save our Bridleway'.

I hope you can keep up the publicity, as things soon slip from peoples minds, and that people read the topic 'BHS letter to Oxford MP re BMW' another good letter from the BHS, and of course the topic

'BHS bridleway fighting fund' to see how they can donate.

Hope this helps to let people know what it is all about!		 Sherry
18/10/2007 11:52 Thanks again Sherry!
That's a brilliant idea to bring up some of the past history on this subject.
It is surprising to see how far back I started posting!!
Enigma/harleyandcopper
Question to BW Routemaster: Why did my name change suddenly from HarleyandCopper to Enigma?		 enigma
18/10/2007 12:25 Thanks Sherry.
Good letter on BHS website to the Oxford East MP Andrew Smith,, in whose constituency the bridleway is
http://www.bhs.org.uk/Content/Ods-More.asp?id=11204&pg=News&spg=News&area=9		 newint
18/10/2007 13:22 The BHS has now set up a fighting fund for online donations. The address is:
www.justgiving.com/AccessFightingFund
All donations will be gratefully received!
Thank you		 Access@BHS
18/10/2007 19:53 We have added a direct link to the BHS Access fund at the bottom of our news article (currently lead article). Regarding the technical stuff, were unable to change the thread name - although we are currently reviewing the forum to add more functionality. As to your switch in user name it appears you registered twice with different email addresses.

We are planning a new year email based newsletter, to our 20,000 or so registered users - maybe the BHS might want to talk to us and provide an article about the 'challenge ahead' not only with the BMW problem but elsewhere as well?		 BW Routemaster
18/10/2007 21:33 Access@BHS - there is still no way to contribute other than by plastic ... Calandra
19/10/2007 07:25 If I might just ask a question, I thought I saw on one of the postings that the ramblers costs were £19,000 something and BHS were £30,000 something, if the Ramblers and BHS were fighting this together how come the costs are different ? has the judge set more costs against BHS because riders are "percieved" as rich toffs or as he says he doesnt like horse riding so penalising riders more, is it me being my usual suspicious cynical self or is there a more innocent explanation, whatever, I think it's a fair question, I have a couple of friends who are Ramblers so will be mentioning it when I see them. Pedantic
19/10/2007 07:50 Good point Pedantic - VERY good point ... Calandra
19/10/2007 16:57 Hi Pedantic - in answer to your question "'Why were the BHS and Ramblers costs so different?"
The Judge awarded costs against the two charities, with BHS taking the lion's share because the Judge said we took up more time. (See my post at the start of this thread about one of our riders having been grilled and nothing short of interrogated for 5 hours, whether our route TO the bridleway was illegal, unlawful etc...). It was because the BMW barrister asked zillions of nit-picking, irrelevent questions on about our route. It was so frustrating. If we had known we were going to be slammed for charges, we should have walked out there and then!
Anyway, despite Mark Weston and the RA's solicitor's great advocacy, we were slammed with a bill of £29,700 and £19,800 for RA to be paid in 28 DAYS!
The irony is BMW is paying all Oxford County Council's costs, so there was no need for the Judge to be so punitive.
 enigma
19/10/2007 17:34 He really didn't like horses! Sherry
19/10/2007 19:41 Thanks for the reply Enigma, maybe if you can get the case looked at by the justice ministry or whoever it is, his open bias will be his downfall. Pedantic
19/10/2007 19:58 We have complained to the Lord Chief Justice, and await the reply. enigma
19/10/2007 22:16 I wonder ... if a private person with absolutely NO assets other than a small pension (the state's legal minimum) and a rented flat took on a similar fight, and costs were awarded against them - costs they could never pay due to their lack of assets, possessions, income and earning potential - what would be the outcome?

Any ideas anyone?		 Calandra
24/10/2007 16:19 BHS have posted BMW's reply to Graham Cory: -

Dear Mr Cory

I refer to your email addressed to Dr Reithofer dated 16 October 2007. As your correspondence affects a case that has just been heard in Court`, it has been passed to the legal department acting on behalf of BMW (UK) Manufacturing Limited to comment upon. I therefore have been asked to reply on behalf of Dr Reithofer.

I am not able to accept the resume you set out as to the circumstances leading up to the Court proceedings, or your description of the origins of the bridleway, or its use by equestrians but see little point in debating these matters in correspondence since they were fully aired in Court.

The costs award by the Judge was made under Section 64(1)(a) of the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980. This gave the Judge a discretion to make such orders as to costs as he thought “just and reasonable”. Before making the award the Judge heard arguments from all parties and then retired to allow him time to consider the matter carefully. He then gave a reasoned judgment explaining his decision.

As I am sure you are aware, the substantive points made in your email concerning the involvement of the BHS in the proceedings, its charitable status and the effect of any Costs Order on it, were fully made by the BHS in its representations to the Court. Notwithstanding those points, the Judge in the exercise of his discretion ordered that the BHS should pay a proportion of the costs incurred by the County Council.

In these circumstances, I do not consider it would be appropriate that BMW (UK) Manufacturing Limited should make a contribution to your fighting fund.

Yours sincerely


Parvathi Sankar
Senior Legal Counsel
Acting for and on behalf of BMW (UK)Manufacturing Limited


Just about what you would expect, eh?		 Merlin
24/10/2007 17:55 Dr Reithofer unable to use a pen himself, maybe worn his wrist out, come to your own conclusions. Pedantic
24/10/2007 20:06 "the judge in the exercise of his discretion..." really, really doesn't like horses. chloe
25/10/2007 00:26 "I am not able to accept ... your description of the origins of the bridleway,"

It's an effing Roman Road Mr or Ms Sankar, that's its origins. Try learning some history of the British Isles ya ignorant maggot. it's a b!oody sight older that you or BMW and guess what, it'll still be there when you're in your grave and BMW is but a distant nasty memory.		 Calandra
25/10/2007 08:56 I have recently written to Graham Corry the Chief Executive of the BHS and asked him to restore the BHS public Forum on their web site although I have not had a reply from him as yet I will pass on his comments when I do.

As regards the public considering us as being Toffs I have ridden many thousands of miles around the roads and bridleways of Great Britain and the vast majority of members of the public are only too happy to talk to me. There are a small number of horse riders (like in any other group) that believe that they are above anyone else when riding in public demonstrating bad manners etc. and let us down.

The solution to this issue is to hurt BMW in their pockets where it will hurt them mostly by ensuring that everyone you know, your employers and public corporations do not purchase any new or second hand BMW's. When sales managers see that they are unable to reach their sales targets they will soon filter the reasons back to BMW.

A campaign is required if we are going to get BMW to cave in and prevent anyone else going down the same route.

There are 4,000,000 horse riders in Great Britain and if they got behind a campaign we could very rapidly get BMW on their knees.

A long term fall in their sales attributed to this incident will clear their minds on this issue. 		PeterNatt
25/10/2007 10:31 In Oxford, alongside our NOW CLOSED bridleway, BMW build our great BRITISH iconic car, the MINI! enigma
25/10/2007 12:07 Minis were allways crap anyway, I'm sure BMW build them better, however there are LOADS of other small super cars to chose from with a lot of items as standard rather than an extra, example- air con and electric windows as standard, Bridleway xtra at £185,000 and untold loss to British countryside, other makers dont act like a sherman tank riding over a peanut, buy a scooby. Pedantic
25/10/2007 14:21 I think that the Oxford c.c. have to take the lion's share of the blame. After all it is the highway authority that is supposed to protect the public interest not the interest of companies. They should have vetoed to order from the start or at least insisted that horse riders were to be provided an alternative at BMW's expense. Now it is the tax payer that will have to pick up the bill if anything is done for riders. bobbyflo
25/10/2007 15:36 And no doubt in years to come after horses and riders have been killed on the dual carriageway, and walkers injured when trying to get help and flag down drivers, the HA will be holding their hand out for donations from RA and BHS to "help" construct a safe and pleasant off-road path ... Calandra
26/10/2007 07:02 If you wish to write to your local BMW dealer then this is the link to find them.

http://www.bmw.co.uk/bmwuk/dealerlocator/0,,___,00.html		 PeterNatt
26/10/2007 23:38 Us Oxford riders who were in court were sure the Judge had an agenda.
It turns out he has a daughter who had a horseriding accident on a bridleway, which was dissected by a road (which she she didn't know about), and she was badly injured after being hit by a vehicle.
Surely this Judge should've been asked whether there was a conflict of interests do they call it? and that he would be predjudiced against horses even before the court case began!
In my opinion, this should come out, along with his comment "weren't you afraid to ride through the Blackbird Leys Estate?"
I haven't read anything about this travesty of justice in any of the national papers. I think the BHS should be writing to them to get as much publicity as possible.

 enigma
27/10/2007 07:25 Well if that doesn't mean a misstrail I dont know what does, I hope the BHS and Ramblers are going to take this up with the Ministry of injustice. Pedantic
27/10/2007 10:00 Why don't YOU write to the papers as well? At the least it will pique the interest of reporters ... Calandra
27/10/2007 10:54 Surely thats a just reason NOT to shove horse riders off bridleways onto roads!? jinglejoys
27/10/2007 11:45 I have written an email to the department of consttutional affairs outlining the case and mentioning the apparent conflict of interest with this judge. I have asked that the case be re-examined with a view to declaring a mistrial.
Supporting emails or letters could only be of assistance but please keep your language temperate and your remarks factual if you do. It would be a pity to alienate potential help in what might be a last ditch chance to put this mess right		 rider
27/10/2007 11:51 Yes jinglejoys, but the way things seem to work is that children abused by adults seem to grow into adults who abuse children, so by the same token in the judges small mind he will hate all horse riders and bridleways because of his own daughters misfortune, not want to improve safety for other riders, bit like Gods little joke with Carbon monoxide, if your in a room with a faulty gas appliance giving of Carbon Monoxide, your blood more readily takes in that in which is killing you rather than any oxygen in the room, it's a strange world we live in mentaly and physically, anyway that aside, the judge was not fit to rule on such a case having such a conflict of interest for either party, BMW may not have got a fair hearing if he had been ALL for bridleways because of his daughter, he should not have sat on this case from either partys veiw, I dont want the bridleway closed, but I do expect a fair hearing for both sides, unforunately justice and fairness are totallay seperate things in this day and age, which is why we have rapists and murdureres walking free after 7 years inside, if that. Pedantic
28/10/2007 17:45 Regarding the judges daughter having a horse riding accident on a bridleway may i ask where this information comes from as it will be essential to be able to ensure that it is factual? PeterNatt
28/10/2007 18:05 My husband, who came to court a couple of times, felt the judge was very biassed and as a consequence he (hubbie) has written to the Office of Judicial Complaints or whatever it it called. He got an email aknowledging his letter but no reply yet.
Re our MP Andrew Smith, I have now had a letter in reply to my email, saying basically we can appeal (Ha! when we've just been clobbered with £30k, I don't think so...) but also offering his help so we think we should take him up on this and try and get for example a horse track around one of the bigger parks etc.
By the way, the judge's daughter apparently made afull recovery.
Some of you might like to see the blog I wrote on this website
www.newint.org and look for blogs. One of my colleagues who has been doing an issue of our magazine (New Internationalist) on corporate social responsibility has also just written something that should be going up shortly.
So far we have had coverage that I know about in The Guardian, Telegraph, Oxford Times, Oxford Mail, Private Eye, Horse and Hound, The Lancaster Guardian, Horsemart, Outdoors Magic, Lost Bridleways, Bridleways.co.uk and, wait for it... MOTOR TRADER - just a very straight report saying bmw 'had come out on top'.
Regarding Peter Natt's entry above, you might be interested to know that the latest figures from the Equestrian Access Forum show that there are 4.3 million riders/drivers, and that it is one of the fastest growing leisure activities. It says that 'horse riding is a much more democractic activity than countryside tourism... horse riders are more evenly distributed across all sectors of the community.' Even is you object to the categories, it is interesting to note that in social class AB horse riders are 25% compared with 32% countryside tourists (cts) and in C1 it is 32% horse riders cf 33% ct's; But in C2, 23% are horse riders cf 20% ct's; and for DE it is 20% horse riders cf 15% countryside tourists.
Despite this, riders have access to only 22.3% of the public rights of way network.
I have written again to the BHS (and to BW Routemaster) about bhs site lack of a forum.		 newint
28/10/2007 19:05 The decision was mentioned in the discussion forum of the website www.geograph.org.uk with a considerable degree of disgust.

Fasgadh says
That is another shocking one - a quick look at the map shows that it is obviously an important travel route and one with no sane alternatives. Unless miracle of miracles they do provide one as promised. Folk often forget that the path network is part of the transport infrastructure - not just a playground for "red socks".

Funny how Morris, Leyland and Rover coped - another bit of evidence for the BMW stereotype.

And there is talk of outsourcing Mini production. How much longer will there be a car plant at Cowley? This stinks of a cynical attempt to increase the value of the land.

Mr Blue Sky said
The alternative that BMW has proposed is to form a path in front of the plant adjacent to the dual carriageway, down the slip road and then turning left under the railway. This work is due to be done early in 2008 so, if anyone does want to use the original, go now.

Calandra replied:
Unfortunately this is only true if you are walking or on a bike. BMW security heavies have already stopped horseriders using the path, trying to get to Shotover Country Park via the quickest and safest route.
 Calandra
29/10/2007 22:51 Getting a horse track (not a bridleway as horses have been pushed out so they should have something of their own) like a London park (Hyde Park for eg) might be a good consolation prize although it does not remove the £30,000 or restore an historic route. Would be good if the horse track connected to other PROWs. Surely the least OCC should do after their behavoir - they are supposed to be improving the PROW network in the area. Can they be shamed into it by the MP? pathan
31/10/2007 01:08 The BHS website, www.bhs.org.uk, now has the Judge's decision paper on it. You can get it, and other related papers on the Oxford / BMW Bridleway closure, by clicking on Access and then on Off Road Riding or go directly to it http://www.bhs.org.uk/DocFrame/DocView.asp?id=1976 Sherry
31/10/2007 02:14 I still would like to know how the information about the judges grandaughter became public knowledge? Can someone tell me please?

Every rider in Oxfordshire should be writing to the chief executive of Oxfordshire County Council complaining about their involvement in this case. 		PeterNatt
31/10/2007 18:03 Re the judge's daughter I believe it came out on a second site visit (which I was not at).
About writing to Oxon's Chief Exec I have asked as many as I know, and some have written which is good. However I don't have any other list and it is hard to contact riders anyway, I find! Too busy with their horses, esp in winter.
The idea of a horse track in a park would be nice and worth looking into, esp as our illustrious mini-owning MP who backed BMW to the hilt has offered to 'help' now. The problem is for me that I feel shattered and exhausted by the whole court experience - having to prepare masses of evidence, ride long 'alternative' routes to time and measure distances; walk the same routes with a meausuring wheel, and ride to Shotover too of course. I get fed up when I keep being told that we were only riding as a 'protest'. Actually Shotover country park was a really nice place to ride, and one of the few places with designated bridleways where for once you know that you and your horse are actually allowed to be!
 newint
31/10/2007 19:11 don't give up, keep fighting, hopefully the horse track idea will happen. monsoon1983
01/11/2007 01:36 Newint and I will be attending a meeting at County Hall on Tues. Nov 6th, to "Ask a Question". I expect we shall be slapped down by county councillors.
Most replies to our letters of complaint regarding the bridleway were answers like "Well you knew what you were getting into when you decided to object/protest/go to court"
The BHS have attended enough cases to know what would happen if they lost!!" was another reply.
We plan to ride our horses through the city of Oxford streets to the County Hall, and to get as much publicity as possible.
I wonder if we will be arrested if we happen to step onto a pavement?
Has anyone heard of a pedestrian getting killed on a pavement by a horse and rider? Quite!!!!!!!		 enigma
01/11/2007 06:54 Wow, I'm really impressed with your bravery and stamina, I dont think I would have the bottle to do what you are doing, but then non of us really know how we would react when pushed into a corner, I wish you the very best. Pedantic
01/11/2007 07:51 I spent many happy years riding in Central London and never managed to injure a pedestrian.

Please can you let us know the meeting place and time when you will be setting off for County Hall? Will this be an open or closed meeting and what time are you expected to reach County Hall on your Horses. What is the address of Oxford County Hall?

I am pleased to tell you that the Long Riders Guild have been made aware of the campaign to save this Bridleway. CuChullaine the President of the Long Riders Guild has sent an Email to a number of their members asking them for their support so some may well wish to show their personal support to your campaign.

I have also written to the Chief Executive of BMW - Great Britain and await his reply with interest. BMW will not be happy to discover that it is not only riders in Great Britain that are supporting you but also riders world-wide.

I enclose below a copy of my letter for your interest.

: 28 October 2007

Dear Mr O’Donnell

I am writing to you because you have the ultimate responsibility for the activities of BMW in Great Britain.

I wish to voice my displeasure of the involvement of BMW in the recent Magistrates Court case, which resulted in the closure of Bridleway 75/Roman Way that crosses your Cowley Works in Oxfordshire.

I kept a horse in London for many years so I am aware of the advantages that these inner city off road routes provide as a safe refuge for horse riders to exercise their horses through inner city and urban areas.

I am disgusted that you as an organisation with a worldwide reputation for the building of quality motor vehicles should have taken this action, which has resulted in the exclusion of horse riders from using a safe off road route and forced them onto busy roads. In this case a dual carriageway.

There are over four million horse riders in Great Britain and the horse riding industry is the second largest land based industry in Great Britain. Horse riding is a sport that is carried out by children as young as 3 years old to people in their late 70’s. Horse riding has proved to be a sport, which both physically and mentally disabled children and adults as well as those with behavioural problems and those from disadvantaged backgrounds can participate in. Horse riding is an activity, which is carried out in inner city, urban and rural areas, however the horses themselves need to be exercised on a daily basis to maintain their physical and mental health and fitness.

In BMW’s home country of Germany both the cities of Dresden and Berlin are working to promote leisure riding in inner city areas so I am even more surprised at the action you have taken.

No doubt there are many horse riders that are customers of yours and have to date been very pleased with the BMW’s that they drive.

Being in the motoring industry you will also no doubt be aware of the number of horse related traffic accidents, which occur each year and you would wish to reduce this number as horses and motorised vehicles do not mix well in this day and age on the busy roads of this country.

I am concerned that the two charities (Ramblers Association and British Horse Society) now face having to pay your costs merely because they acted to defend the interests of their memberships.

I am told that immediately after the court case you instructed your site security guards to stop any horse riders from using the existing route and I find that this was a particularly vindictive and petty minded thing to do to vulnerable road users.

An organisation of your size could at the very least have afforded to provide a safe alternative route of Bridleway Status so that horse riders could have used the new route, which has only been provided for walkers and cyclists.

BMW should not be seen as an anti-horse riding organisation as it clearly will not do its image any good.

I would therefore suggest that as a gesture of good will and to redeem your organisation from the potential damage it will cause itself over this issue that you should provide a new safe route of Bridleway status, waiver the costs against the Ramblers Association and British Horse Society, pay the legal and administrative costs of the Ramblers Associations and British Horse Society in having to act on behalf of their members in regards to this case, and make a substantial charitable donation to each of the Ramblers Association and The British Horse Society which should be ring fenced so that it is utilized for off road access work.

This action will send a clear message to your current and potential customers that you recognise the errors of your ways and of course will be only a small price to pay for an organisation of your size to preserve the reputation of your brand name.

I hope that BMW will take immediate action over this matter which will overturn the injustice to horse riders

I trust that you will have the courtesy to reply to my letter within the next fourteen days and I look forward to be hearing from you that there will be a positive mutually advantageous outcome to this most unfortunate matter.

Yours sincerely





Peter J Natt
 PeterNatt
01/11/2007 14:50 HI
Reading the messages here does help a lot, so thanks. Peter - your letter is terrific. Let's hope it gets some results.
Re the full Council meeting on Tuesday 6 November, it is at 10 am in County Hall, New Road, Oxford. I will be submitting the Question today or tomorrow. Normally these are earmarked for one councillor, and that would normallly be he who deals with Transport - Ian Hudspeth . However he has already had an email from me that went to all the councillors and the CEO of Oxon CC, plus he has received letters from others who support us and we have had his extremely unhelpful and almost rude replies, usual stuff about us knowing what we were getting into etc. I replied asking who is the councillor responsible for Public Rights of Way. And guess what, it is the same guy! For all these reasons I want the Question to go to full Council but that may be beyond my options.
It would be great to have lots of people there, from 9.30am onwards I would think. We are hoping to get a couple of horses there also. And placards with 'Shame on Oxon CC you should protect public rights of way' Shame on BMW type stuff, Save our Bridleways. Oxon CC/BMW will counter of course that they are providing an alterntive route for pedestrians and cyclists, and BMW said in H&H that they had 'no objections to the proposed alternative path being adapted for equestrian use'. But of course they are not attaching money to that, and it sounds liike the kind of weasel statement that sounds good publicity-wise but doesn't really mean anything. Troth		 newint
01/11/2007 21:35 Brillant letter Peter - keep us posted. Sherry
01/11/2007 23:06 I am pleased to tell you that you are receiving support from Long Distance and Equestrian Publications from the U.S.A, Alaska, New Zealand and further afield.

Please find below some of their comments:

Dear Peter,

My close friend CuChullaine O'Reilly over at the Long Riders' Guild
passed along your letter to BMW in an e-mail introducing you. He and I
spoke about the sickening situation regarding the endangered bridleway
only days ago. The blistering significance of your courts siding with a
German company over a centuries old British equestrian land-use custom
on home soil, and then the incredible punitive bootheel-in-the-gut to
the poor charities already down from the initial blow, I promise you is
not lost on us.

Should you advise me to, I can approach editors at every major
equestrian magazine where I have a standing relationship to cover the
situation as a news item. I will be happy to pass along an editorial if
you can work one up (I think this must come from someone like yourself,
directly affected by the decision rather than me an ocean
away--although, believe me, I could editorialize on this matter), with a
cover letter to editors I know to see if there is interest to print it.

The other action I can take is to follow your lead and write to BMW
directly, and let them know that as a leading international equestrian
journalist, I am aware of their actions, have read your letter calling
for good will, and am eagerly awaiting their response to report on it to
the world equestrian community. Perhaps we can get your request for
reconciliation on this matter, along with BMW's response, posted online
as an international rallying point.

Other than these small actions, I'm not sure what else I may be able to
do, except to congratulate you on a brilliant letter, and throw support
for your fight your way. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you
think I may be of some additional service, and I will await your
instructions before proceeding with any of the above.

Best of luck in your honorable endeavor,

Tom

Dear Peter,
Quick update.
Sent the basic info and your letter earlier this morning to an equestrian researcher named Jason Wentworth.
He lives in Alaska, is very internet savvy, and has connections to horse people around the world.

Meanwhile, no word from Horse & Hound, but will let you know if I hear anything.
And Geoff, at Horse Connection in Colorado isn't even out of bed yet.
But I think we can count on his editiorial help.

Yet even at this early stage, your realization of the potential disasterous impact on all bridleways has already hit Garry Ashton-Coulton, over at Horse magazine, hard.
He sent me this one line message, which I instantly responded to.
Both messages are below.

Frankly, given the current political climate in the UK, I think the BMW management will ignore you.
So I think you need to use this fourteen day breathing space to prepare your next move.
In that way when the clock hits midnight, you and your friends can take action.

Now what, where and when you do something is an interesting question.
And because of the internet campaign we launched against Disney's notoriously nasty movie, Hidalgo, we offer you some suggestions.

But that's up to you.
In the meantime, stay very cool, don't get rattled, and think long term.

best wishes Saddle Pal,
CuChullaine




"It does rather open a can of worms because I would say most bridle paths cross over private land."
Garry - Horse - London.



Dear Garry,
Just back from a walk along the paved over roadways surrounding this auto addicted village where I am forced to reside.
During my morning "ramble" I thought a lot about the unique heritage now under threat in your country.

As Basha can tell you, the greatest irony of her two equestrian journeys, across Russia and then through the Old West, was her discovery that while she could ride 2,000 miles across Russia without seeing a fence, every inch of land in America had a wire stretched across it.

In contrast to England, this is a country with the word "Private" prominently displayed at every opportunity and for all to see.

Consequently, from my distant perspective as a landlocked citizen of another country, the English have been granted an amazing heritage of physical freedom which others can not even relate to, much less dream of enjoying on their horse or during a walk with the kids, etc.

Yet the problem, from where I see it, is that the values which granted England and her citizens respect, are now derided, undermined, ignored, or over-ruled by the politicians.

I do not think I exaggerate when I express the residual shock which set in when you, and hundreds of thousands of other citizens, marched through London in protest against the on-coming and illegal war against Iraq.
Yet Blair's contempt for the will of the people then has to bear part of the blame for what is occurring now.

As Blair proved, traditions can be overturned, liberties will be destroyed, and rights will be trampled.
Why?

Because the repressive nanny-state which now shields itself under the purloined name of "England", with its CCTV, its draconian laws, its loyalty to money, and its defiance of ethics, will side on the side of the capitalist money-bags at BMW instead of defending the ancient rights of its mounted and rambling citizens.

Do I think Peter's cause is doomed?
No.

But I fear that the essence of British manhood is lost, that the majority of the citizenry is afraid, and that no one will be willing to mount up, and Guy Fawkes like, lead an equestrian rebellion against this slur on England's honour.

And that's what I think about that.
So I'm off for more coffee.

CuChullaine		 PeterNatt
02/11/2007 11:17 Thanks everyone for these stirring messages, and hope that 'Horse' magazine does feature it.
For your information, we are still active even tho we cannot ride on that bridleway any more. We did in fact ride the day after the court judgement, even tho the bridleway signs had already been taken down, but were stopped by security guards on the way back - luckily it WAS the way back so at least we got through.
However next Tuesday there is a full meeting of Oxfordshire County Counil and I will be going with enigma to 'Ask a Question' which I have pasted below. Two of our horses will be outside the County Hall, and the BHS will be there with a giant cheque which it will NOT be handing over yet as it is not quite due. We hope to have placards and the press also.. If any one can come, or knows someone who could, do tell them: 9.30am at County Hall, New Road, Oxford.
My email is trothw@newint.org
It is very sustaining to have all your support on this matter, and I feel so upset (as a rider, BHS access officer and bridlway group member) that we have lost part of our network in this despicable way.
Here's the question sent to council. it would normally go to the member for transport (who ironically is also supposed to look after right s of way!!) but I have specifically asked for it to go to full council as I have already had the member for transport's harsh reply.

Question for OCC – ‘Ask a Question’ Tuesday Nov 6

To the Leader and full Council:

In the light of the furore over the Council’s failure to protect Public Rights of Way with the loss of a bridleway in Cowley, leading to further fragmentation of the network and loss of access to the countryside, can the Council understand why District Judge Loosley's decision to make an order of costs of £29,700 against the British Horse Society for opposing the Council's application to extinguish bridleway 75 across BMW's site, when no alternative was being provided for horse-riders, will deter people from democratically objecting to future such applications; and explain why it pursued an application for costs against the British Horse Society and the Ramblers Association (two charities defending the right of way in the public interest) when BMW had entered into a contract with the Council undertaking to meet all the Council's costs associated with the case?

 newint
02/11/2007 12:49 FOR ANYONE INTERESTED, THIS IS THE EMAIL FOR THE LEADER OF OXON CC, KEITH MITCHELL
keith.mitchell@oxfordshire.gov.uk

Do write to him! Thanks		 newint
02/11/2007 17:57 Latest - the BMW's UK finance director has been jailed for speeding in his BMW-MIINI and then lying about who was driving the car - but guess what, he only got fined £1,200 + £60 costs. What seems more dangerous, him doing 101mph in a 50mph zone and lying about it, or a few horseriders trying to keep open a bridleway! How come we got clobbered for £30k...
See the story at
http://www.thisisoxford.co.uk/display.var.1805428.0.bmw_director_jailed.php		 newint
02/11/2007 22:58 I would be gratefull if you could all add a post to my post on the Horse and Hounds Web Site Forum so as to get as many people as possible to attend the deomonstration outside Oxforshire County Council at 9.30 a.m. on Tuesday 6th November 2007

The link is:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2458345/an/0/page/0#2458345		 PeterNatt
04/11/2007 15:22 I have posted - thanks Peter newint
05/11/2007 17:47 Thanks everyone - we weill let you know how the visit to County Hall tomorrow goes...! newint
05/11/2007 18:39 In today's Oxford Mail: SADDLING UP
OXFORD: Members of the British Horse Society will be on horseback at
County Hall tomorrow to protest about BMW's closure of an ancient bridleway.
At Witney Magistrates Court last month, the company won permission to close
the Roman Way bridleway, which runs through its new Mini plant.
The British Horse Society and Ramblers' Association were ordered to pay
£47,500 in legal costs in 28 days, and Horse Society members will be
lobbying the county council over the bill.

I have my banner ready for the cameras tomorrow!
"SHAME ON OCC FOR NOT PROTECTING OUR BRIDLEWAY!"

If anyone feels like donating towards the BHS' court costs, here is the address:
www.justgiving.com Mark Weston BHSFIGHTINGFUND.
Wish us luck!
Cheers		 enigma
05/11/2007 20:22 Well, had a sign on our notice board with a printout of the Horse n Hound page and me offering to pass any donations on if they wanted, over a week now, not one single person mentioned it to me or offered 50p, this country will get what it deserves, a country full of horse riders all in their own little world with nowhwere to ride, apparently I'm so anal ! Pedantic
05/11/2007 21:42 Never easy to get money out of people. pathan
06/11/2007 00:03 I know what you mean.
I think the word is apathy.
It makes me think 'Why do I bother?'		 enigma
06/11/2007 17:31 It is as well we did bother, Enigma, otherwise there would have been nothing at all about this closure and that would make it easier for business and councils just to do it. Even though it's been lots of hard work I just think 'at least more people know about the issues now and might be aware'. But I agree it would be great if they made a donation. After all, there could be a proposed bridleway closure in their patch next time...
I have sent a 'report; of today to BW Routemaster for posting.		 newint
06/11/2007 21:20 Thank you all for bothering.

Sadly the result has not been good, but, if it has made one more person wake up and realise how vulnerable our routes are, it will have been a success.		 Sherry
07/11/2007 00:07 Thanks - you're quite right.

I shouldn't let them get me down - I will be ok again tomorrow after i've tended our beautiful horses. They are wonderful therapy to lift my spirits		 enigma
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